โ RNS 1.4.2 released https://pypi.org/project/rns/
๐ฌค rns.recipes
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โ Post-quantum encryption on RNS โ
โโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโ
Started by pcarr ยท 1mo ago
โโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโ
post-1
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โ pcarr #1 โ
โฐโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโฏ
โธ 1mo ago
Recently there's [been](https://words.filippo.io/crqc-timeline/)
[some](https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=9425)
[discussion](https://blog.google/innovation-and-ai/technology/safety-security/cryptography
-migration-timeline/) about fast timelines for cryptographically-relevant quantum
computing.
Since Reticulum currently relies on non-quantum-safe asymmetric cryptography, I was
wondering whether anyone has considered a timeline for migrating to quantum-safe crypto.
It seems like there would have to be a transition period where every node has two
identities, the existing non-quantum-safe one and a quantum-safe one, that are linked
together somehow. If a connection can be routed entirely through nodes that support
post-quantum encryption, it is upgraded to use everyone's post-quantum identities.
Once some adoption threshold is met, the non-quantum-safe identities could be phased out.
This could even be done node-by-node, eg when 90% of the traffic through a node is using
post-quantum encryption, it deprecates its non-quantum-safe identity.
I am not very well-educated on this subject myself -- mostly just opening the floor for
discussion. I expect that there would be a significant bandwidth and compute-time
tradeoff, since all current PQE algorithms are significantly slower and require larger
keys than ed25519. However, this tradeoff may be worth it to ensure that Reticulum
remains secure over the next few years.
โ 3 โ 4 โค 1
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post-2
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โ Anonymous #2 โ
โฐโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโฏ
โธ 1mo ago
I am wondering is there a post quantum cryptography that actually has the neede
functionality.
โ 0 โ 0 โค 0
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post-3
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โ hardened_malloc #3 โ
โ 1984c4b048aecbf9 โ
โฐโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโฏ
โธ 1mo ago
pcarr wrote:
> Recently there's [been](https://words.filippo.io/crqc-timeline/)
[some](https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=9425)
[discussion](https://blog.google/innovation-and-ai/technology/safety-security/cryptography
-migration-timeline/) about fast timelines for cryptographically-relevant quantum
computing.
>
> Since Reticulum currently relies on non-quantum-safe asymmetric cryptography, I was
wondering whether anyone has considered a timeline for migrating to quantum-safe crypto.
>
> It seems like there would have to be a transition period where every node has two
identities, the existing non-quantum-safe one and a quantum-safe one, that are linked
together somehow. If a connection can be routed entirely through nodes that support
post-quantum encryption, it is upgraded to use everyone's post-quantum identities.
>
> Once some adoption threshold is met, the non-quantum-safe identities could be phased
out. This could even be done node-by-node, eg when 90% of the traffic through a node is
using post-quantum encryption, it deprecates its non-quantum-safe identity.
>
> I am not very well-educated on this subject myself -- mostly just opening the floor for
discussion. I expect that there would be a significant bandwidth and compute-time
tradeoff, since all current PQE algorithms are significantly slower and require larger
keys than ed25519. However, this tradeoff may be worth it to ensure that Reticulum
remains secure over the next few years.
In my opinion the best approach would probably be a layered encryption scheme, although
it would come at the cost of increased bandwidth usage, and higher computational
overhead. It also avoids placing all trust in relatively new post-quantum algorithms from
the outset while preserving compatibility between older and newer nodes. Additionally, if
a weakness were later discovered in the post-quantum algorithm, the existing classical
security layer could still provide a degree of protection rather than relying solely on
the new scheme.
The general idea would be to establish a connection using the existing protocol, then, if
both peers advertise post-quantum support, negotiate a post-quantum-secured channel
within that connection and migrate subsequent traffic to it. This would allow older nodes
to continue operating unchanged while newer nodes gain post-quantum protection whenever
both ends support it.
Iโm approaching this from an engineering standpoint rather than a cryptographic one, so
this is more about practical system design than formal security modeling.
โ 4 โ 0 โค 3
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post-4
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โ welo #4 โ
โฐโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโฏ
โธ 1mo ago
hardened_malloc wrote:
> In my opinion the best approach would probably be a layered encryption scheme, although
it would come at the cost of increased bandwidth usage, and higher computational
overhead.
This is probably makes the most sense, we would just default to assuming all reticulum
packets are unencrypted and transparent and then make a protocol ontop of it to actually
encrypt, in the same way we made HTTPS from HTTP. We still get all the nice routing from
reticulum which is what matters more. Even in this case we can make the assume that 99%
of traffic probably wouldn't get compromised and read because the quantum computers
capable doing this attack would likely be rare and or slow, and decrypting all traffic
would be impractical.
In the scenario where everyone magically gets a device capable of breaking encryption and
owns a quantum phone, we'd need entirely new protocols anyways for sending quantum data
and that scenario is so far in the future that it just doesn't matter because we cannot
possible prepare for it.
I will note that any future reticulum-like protocol that is incompatible with the current
spec could use the existing reticulum network itself as an interface to bootstrap itself
in the same way that reticulum uses the regular internet to bootstrap itself for
adoption, so breaking changes are slightly less of a big deal than with other protocols.
Infact it's even less a big deal than the would-be transition from the current internet
to reticulum as a future implementations could still bridge distant reticulum nodes
together using their newer protocol allowing old reticulum code to work while currently
there's no possibilities of normal internet traffic routing through reticulum.
โ 0 โ 2 โค 0
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post-5
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โ pla55 #5 โ
โ fbe1cb380f6bd761 โ
โฐโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโโฏ
โธ 1mo ago
Mark's thoughts on PQ-crypto (from 2023):
https://github.com/markqvist/Reticulum/discussions/181
Just thought I'd leave it here for context, not sure if the situation has changed and
there's some proven safe algorithm now but I'm still going to assume it's not a priority
yet.
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โ INFO โ Identify to this node to post. How?
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